All right. Welcome back, guys. Today we have Karen. Is it DeLoach? DeLoach, DeLoach. That’s right. Can you go ahead and introduce yourself? I am happy to. Thank you so much for having me. I’m an artist, first and foremost. Art teacher, mentor. I’m also author, an actor filmmaker. I teach filmmaking and just a creativity specialist and wife and mother and grandmother.

Very nice. Very nice. And we have just been having an awesome conversation. And Karen has a lot of lovely stories that tell us about ADHD in your life. Yeah. When my now 40 year old son was growing up, it was very evident that he didn’t think the way my older son or even my younger son did, that he had a different way of going about life.

Now, I didn’t understand anything about ADHD at the time and, you know, homeschooling, eventually homeschooling my sons and realizing that the same curriculum that worked for my father didn’t work for him. He came at things from a totally different way. And so I started studying, you know, what’s going to work for him. We talked about math. He could figure out math problems in his head.

He couldn’t tell you how he got there. But he did have the right answer over and over. It was amazing, even up into Algebra two. So his brain definitely was wired differently. And All my children are creative was because I’m an artist and an actor. Their dad’s a musician, an actor. So we have a lot of the arts in our lives.

None of them are brain scientists. They’re all all artists, musicians and writers. So this this world of ADHD, I didn’t understand as I just was experiencing it with my own son. It wasn’t until later we understood the specifics, but I also started experiencing experience, seeing it as I brought students into my studio, and a lot of times it was students whose parents were struggling with their understanding of academics.

They weren’t thriving in their regular coursework. And if it’s I’ll tell David story now, he was diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia and he was depressed. He he was not thriving at all. He couldn’t get the academics, even though his mother was working really hard to put the tools in place. So she brought in my studio and I started working with him and he did great.

I entered his works in a youth art competition in our state, and he was winning ribbons and medals. And this enabled him to get confidence that what, you know, I may feel like I’m stupid, but I’m not stupid. I have something to say. And as a way now to express it. And that thriving in this arena enabled him to buckle down and work, do the work that his mom was presenting to him to overcome the challenges he had, and he was able to graduate from high school.

So that was a huge victory. So I’m saying this, you know, art teacher, artist, mom, homeschool mom, going nuts. Interesting. You know, it’s interesting to see how art, you know, can help someone emotionally and mentally and find expression just just even beyond the normal ways that self-expression helps all of us. So besides my son and having to work through his learning challenges and then the students that I was having, I also was having more and more autistic students that were nonverbal in my classes and just not being again, I’m not an art therapist.

I just was, you know, wanting to come alongside the parents and say, what can art do for them? And I would just teach them, teach them to draw and teach them to paint. And so there’s this expression come forth. And the parents were like amazed at what their students were, were painting and drawing and expressing in their sculptures.

And it enabled them to create communication bridges with each other that enabled everything in their lives to go better. I’ve also taught in college and they’ve been online. Working with adults has been the same type of victory. Seeing adults get incredible healing and restoration through participating in the arts. Now I have a parent who came to me. I had been working with.

Sculpture was really good and she said, I’ve just been diagnosed with stage four, late stage breast cancer and given six months to live. Besides being devastated with her, I thought of something. You know, I’m preparing for a huge room installation in nine months and a huge show in Charleston, South Carolina. I need help. Please come in the studio with me.

When you’re not doing radiation and chemo and and mastectomies come in the studio at least two or three days a week, we would have a blast laugh, solving problems with. All right, I mentioned this. So how do you what do you use to make dark chocolate or a light chocolate or, you know, how do we how do we do these ribbons or create the look of roses on cakes and and we just worked hard together, got furniture from Goodwill and and redid it to make cafe tables and chairs and created a whole room called Taste and See Sweet Shop.

People came in thinking it was a chocolate shop. They’re going to buy there for sale, but don’t eat them. You’ll break your teeth. They’re made out of porcelain. And sure enough, nine months later, Jan was there with me and standing there work that 17 day show with me and was in remission. And even now, amazing. Later she is even completely cancer free.

Now she’s convinced that the arts played a huge role having something beautiful to do and to work on and to focus on and concentrate, rather than just dwelling on the devastation of the illness and what it was doing to her body. And I see her still regularly and they’re very, very creative people. And, you know, set me on a on a journey.

What is it about art? What is it about these arts? You know, with with people challenged, with neuro divergences or different kinds of of brain or mental challenges, How does it play a part? And they know music soothes the savage beast, right? So there’s there’s ties to music and there’s ties to the arts in that it it starts activating the right brain.

Okay. Our left brain is is our order and timeliness and memorization and how we get good scores on our SATs. But the left brain is our imagination, our intuitive or inventive side of us. I know it’s I’m breaking it down very simply. It’s not that simple, but I read. Where do you know that? They say 98% of five and six year olds are creative geniuses.

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Unknown

That’s very interesting. 2% of adults. What’s happened, you know, in the 20 years because it’s still there that that creative potential is still within us all because we all have this right brain, Right. And whatever other dysfunction, what happens when you engage in the arts, it actually increases your brain’s ability to be what they call plastic.

In other words, you can start the one part of the brain can help another part of brain make all these neural connections and be there for the part of the brain that’s damaged or injured. It can rewire itself just like our left us lefties or our wiring in our brain is different than righties. And so, you know, our one son was ambidextrous.

If it was on the left side, he used his left hand. It was on the right hand. And then he even played baseball left handed in high school. And then he broke his left wrist and had to have extensive therapy. He learned to write right handed. And he he still writes right handed. And now as a musician, he’s kind of still going back to that ambidextrous, using both hands.

So it’s interesting what we can learn. I even have an older gentleman who just got diagnosed a couple of years ago with Parkinson’s and couldn’t paint anymore. He was an engineer. His right left brain was really developed and smart, but he loved painting and drawing and he hadn’t done any of it since he’d been been shaking so much with his right hand.

So I tell you, it didn’t take long in lessons together to learn to use his left hand to draw and paint, even accidentally picking up the right hand. It wasn’t shaking anymore while he did it, it was juvenile. Did you mention these were online lessons with him? Yeah. I don’t know if I mentioned, but it. Yeah, he lives in Connecticut.

I’m in South Carolina. So just like this, I’m going through my my, my book, my how to draw book, my how to paint book with him and taking him to those exercises, using his left hand instead of his right hand. And there’s neural connections were there. He was already engaging in the arts before this, but he hadn’t had had really the courage sometimes to to do it left handed.

And he just needed needed instruction and he needed that kind of encouragement. And one of his best friends called his son, who connected me with him and and said, I don’t know what this art person is doing with him, but he’s out of depression. He’s got more of a lease on life than I’ve seen in a couple of years now.

So that’s those kind of experiences. Encourage me to realize that art is self therapy. There is wellness through creativity. So how can each one of us, no matter what our challenges, are, what age we are? This man, 77, he’s not a spring chicken, but he could learn something new and he could have it bring healing to his body and his mind and his emotions through the arts.

And, you know, even those of us that don’t identify as artists or artists in any way, we all have ways that we can engage in the creative and different creative activities to excite and ignite and stir up our right brain. And so interesting with my ADHD, I have big challenges sitting in church. It just I’m hyperactive, ADHD, and to sit down in one place and be expected to do nothing except listen was torture.

And so what I would do is I would sit there and I would draw and I would make the cutest bunnies. And like I started to have like I would take pictures with me so that I could have a reference of something that I would draw and I could listen and do that. And then I had an experience in college.

It was a at Iowa State University, and there was this big lecture hall, you know, hundreds of students in there. And I would sit right in the front so I could pay attention. And I had to draw. And the professor asked me, he’s like, can you? He stopped the class. And it’s embarrassing cause there’s a whole lot of people in this room.

And he stops the whole thing and he said, Can you pay attention to me when you do that? And I said, This is the only way I can pay attention. And he said, and to his credit, he said, Carry on. And so that’s been that’s been my experience where art has really helped my ADHD or helped my hyperactivity anyway, to be able to focus by by drawing while listening to things.

I know exactly what you mean. My husband and I are ministers. We have a home based church called Imagine Gathering. So is your artist, your musicians, your dancers, your writers, your singers who can’t sit still in church either. Went to churches where you could dance or paint. Have you ever been to a church where people were painting or drawing?

It’s a lot more engaging when you get to be yourself and still be in a position to hear the Word of God and worship God. So we are worshipers who can do it kind of outside the box, so to speak. Now, in our church was 3 hours, and so not 3 hours of sitting there, but three different hours of classes.

And by the third one, it wasn’t going to happen. So I was walking the halls. Okay. So what they did is they put me in with like two and three year olds. And I said, still, either they would still keep me in the nursery and that I was the nursery teacher for years and years. And it’s so funny.

So I can relate to that very well. Yeah, I was I was telling you that I have recently been feeling more and more drawn to art. It’s come up in getting coached. It’s something that’s just been kind of an inspiration for me that I need to get back to some sort of art. I’ve always been like, I like to draw, but I’ve never considered myself, you know, an artist.

But I always like to craft, but I’m interested in getting back to painting or not back to painting and learning. Painting. You do online classes. Tell us about that. I do. You know, this World Wide Web thing is awesome. I think in 2020, a lot of us that even in my college classes went online and at first is how do you teach the visual arts?

Well, you know, you discover Zoom and discover that you can use you know, video to even though it’s flat, you know, I’m creating a flat image. So I encourage my students when I’m working with, okay, now I want you to have that fruit in your person. I want you to have these objects with you. Meanwhile, I have some things we can draw you.

You’re going to draw this. And you know, so I have my objects around me that I use for for models. But ultimately, they’re going to have to have things in their own world to draw and to paint. But it works. It’s absolutely doable. And you’re now open to an audience that’s beyond your own location. So it’s it’s great.

And you can work around people’s schedules. You can you can set up time when they are available and you’re available usually and except for a couple of the lessons that I do, it’s mostly 30 minute lessons. Color wheels sometimes takes longer. There’s some things that take longer, but most of them you can do and I can give my assignments and do it.

And I have exercises in my how to draw book, how to paint book. And you use these things that I’ve used for decades, and they work to help people build their skills to be able to express themselves and in drawing and painting and ultimately even in sculpture. So it’s is fun. This is my world. I also teach went back to school in my fifties to film school.

So I came from a Irish storyteller who was on vaudeville, you know, and he was very my father was very talented. And so some of that storytelling thing came off in me, and I just so drawn to moviemaking and, and having having that as a venue. And I love I was a gymnast in high school, a soccer player in college.

I love the collaborative teamwork aspect of soccer are better than being alone on a on an apparatus with all these judges looking at you. It was terrifying. Going on stage was easy after being trained gymnast so I realized that I love theater and I love theater was my minor love theater. And then filmmaking, you know, and being in the digital world now where everybody has a camera available to all these little handheld cameras, take great pictures.

We can make our own videos. And I went to Uganda with the with the missions group two years ago, and I got to meet these rescued youths from the streets of Uganda who this church brought in. And they I taught art with them. And and they they wanted to do tell their stories and they were able to get Internet.

Sometimes it’s just on a phone. But we’ve been meeting ever since then once a week to do film class together. And they just on Friday last week had the premiere of their second film that they that I’ve helped to write. I teach them all about the structure of film, a filmmaking company. And, you know, then afterwards I say, okay, you just finished your shoot.

Now it’s an editing process. Tell me about your experience. I’m telling you, one young person after another talking about how this experi ence, even working together to have a project that you’re all working towards changed their life, that they didn’t know what they could do in their life when they were rescued. Okay, They came out of things we don’t even want to think about that young people have to overcome.

And yet they could act or they could shoot the movie, or they could be an assistant director or do costumes or hair or work on the sets. It just it just watching them light up with this joy of creativity and who knows if they’ll ever going to be having that Ugandan Hollywood, I don’t know. But they are so thrilled.

And me and my circle of friends, we raised the money to make sure they eat. When I found out they were shooting for 12 hours and didn’t eat this, grandma was like, No way. We are making sure every time you shoot you have food and drink. So they call me grandma, something they don’t know me Teacher Karen or Grandma Karen.

Now, you wrote an art history book as well, and I was I was saying before we started recording that art history was actually one of my favorite classes in college, and I kept my textbook from art history. I think I just declutter it probably about three years ago. And so I kept it for many, many years and would go through it pretty regularly.

But you have one that you created yourself. I do. And again, it’s an e-book. The publishers came to me in 2020 and said, You want to write a textbook? Well, I had been teaching in college for about six years up to that point, and I knew something about my students and I was using the textbooks they provided or I found ones and most textbooks, art history books are written by art historians.

I’m sure they love art. They know a lot about it. But quite frankly, they’re teaching the subject from their left brain logic order or chronology that it did. And I was skipping through and figuring out how to teach it to my students in a way that I felt like they could grasp. It never had enough pictures. So when I said, okay, I spent nine months writing this 630 page book that has 1800 images that I included work that I knew that these people could relate to.

I told the stories of the artist and the periods of time and the countries where they came from not so much just names and dates, because quite frankly, my nieces and nephews have said our art history was their most boring class contemporary. Not for me, unless I had a great textbook or a good teacher. That was awesome. I know I challenged my my in graduate school.

I challenged our professor, who was was a doctor of art history. And I said, look, you’ve got a roomful of artists here and this is not relating to us at all. You know, we have a way we think and this is not doing it. And he just said, How do you want to do it? So he has signed this all an artist.

And and we researched him and brought forth the work. And Todd taught the class for health and, you know, everybody the class might have might have not been happy with me. But I think we all got more out of it. And in the end, you know, when you take time to study, you know, something that you’re interested in, you’re more knowledgeable, you enjoy it more, and it increases the the the memory factor.

You remember more about it. So, you know, studying the right brain, left brain and really wanting to see us and understanding that as an adult, it’s not too late. You know, for a lot of us and my age group, we’ve raised our children, we’ve had careers. We’re at a point where we have more time to maybe pursue. We always wanted to paint like you’re describing.

I really want to I don’t know how to start. I don’t know what to do. And there’s just so many ways that we can connect with with the ability to learn, to draw, learn to paint. I just signed up and started last night with a girlfriend of mine line dancing class, not a pair of red boots, and joined about 80 women in this room.

And we learned how to do a line dance. And it was so much fun. And I’m just saying I wasn’t even the oldest one there and I’m 70. So there was some older than me in the camp, believe you, or 70. I can’t believe I’m 70. It’s one of those shocking numbers. It’s like, what? Man? My mom’s 92.

that’s doing great. Yeah, it’s. It’s. We have more life to us. If this is supposed to be our golden years, what a golden years look like. What do you need to happen in your life to, you know, enjoy and find more pleasure and joy in your day to day life? I mean, the scientists that I’ve been studying, they said some of us at 15, some to 18, 20 minutes a day of stirring up your right brain, you know, releases serotonin, the happiness chemical releases dopamine releases and reduces the stress hormones.

So you are doing your body good things, your emotions and good things just just 20 minutes a day. And it can be maybe writing in a journal, taking a stroll and sitting on a bench and and noticing the sounds and the colors and the smells around you. You’re engaging both sides of your brain and you’re building brilliance. You’re getting rid of brain fog.

And depression is so good for you. Gardening. You said that you like to garden love gardening created. I know they don’t have just one creative outlet. They have some creative outlet. It’s because we can’t we can’t really decide they’re all fun. Gardening is just brilliant way to stir up both sides. Do I put the purple and yellow pansies in front or behind and, you know, just arranging the flowers or.

Or maybe you’re growing vegetables. I don’t know. I love it. When my husband wrote. What so interesting to me is with with gardening, especially with my ADHD, where it really helped me with was a lot of patients because I could put that seed in the ground and there was nothing I could do to make it grow any faster.

And I had to wait. I could pick it up and see what it was doing. I couldn’t do anything. And so I really felt like it. It calmed me, number one, being a hyperactive, that’s really important, but also it really helped me with patients and you know, which kind of helps your impulse control. So that was it’s it was very therapeutic.

I need to get back to my gardening for sure. Well, you know, besides being fruitful in more ways than one, my husband is a master gardener, so he’s always just given me so much joy with the flowers because I love color and I love flowers. And he learned from me a lot of, you know, you’re learning the color wheel, what colors to put together and what works complement.

So he got some training from me too on how to use that in his career. But he you know, I like to cook you know, when you’re when you’re children to raising your family, you have to cook, Right? There’s no choice. And I can say every meal was creative. At least if I had a little more time, I could, you know, really jazz up some recipes and, I love so much cooking.

Like on my own. I don’t How do I describe this? My husband gets frustrated because I will make a meal and he’ll say, What’s in this? Or there’s no recipe, I guess is what my point is. I’ll I’ll just like, put things together. And he’s amazed that like, I’ll just like I have a spice drawer and I will just take spices and I’ll just smell them and decide like what goes together.

And he’s like, This is so good. How did you make it? And I’m like, I’m not exactly sure the this creativity of it, right? Yeah. I had to learn to start taking notes because the same thing. And even my grandmother, my grandmother came from Norway and she had these incredible recipes of sweets, especially baked goods that I loved and every Christmas time.

And so my sister and I both would sit at her feet like, okay, so how much almond do you use? And she’s like, enough, you know, just to let you know how much sugar. Well, you just, you know, so we both we both have a recipe for for her Norwegian waffles, but they’re not exactly the same. But I noticed it.

So. Yeah, I put a cup of this and you put a cup and a quarter. You know, we have a little bit of differences because she never did measure. She just said, it’s too thick, a little more milk, you know. So if you try to get an amount of milk you use, she wasn’t going to give you that amount and melt till it’s the right ones.

Right. You know, I’ll find Now you mentioned a pop up podcast is how you described it. Tell us about that. Yeah, this is something that I created to help the people listening to have more information about how to stir up your own creativity. So it’s, it’s www.getcreativewithkaren.com go there, register, get this pop up podcast, you get one at a time.

They’re about 20 minutes and they talk about, okay, I’ve been there, I’ve been where you are, and I understand how frustrating this is. So try this. I give homework too, between the episodes and an opportunity to connect with me. If you want further, further help or information, and then lots of ways that you can stimulate your right brain creative center.

So whatever neurodivergent issues you have or emotional issues you have, I’m telling you it’s during hope that right brain is going to help scientists prove it. And I can’t explain why necessarily it works. But just so many reports I read every day more and more how the arts should be in all of our lives are certainly creativity. My program is called Art as Self Therapy Wellness through creativity.

And of course, wellness is that mind, body, soul, spirit way. The whole part of us. It’s not just one part of us. When you’re depressed, everything feels bad. You know, when you when you when you don’t feel like you’re thriving and you’re and you’re not engaged in your full potential as a as a human, especially as we get older, you’re asking those questions.

What else can I do? I want to leave a legacy of life. My my Norwegian grandmother I was talking about used to knit us these little booties. She called them little booties like little little slipper socks. And most of us, especially as kids, they were like wild colors, you know, they weren’t one color that you have yarn, that is all these various colors.

And so they’d be just just such wild colors. And I’m telling you, she lived 96 to be 96. And those booties are precious to every one of us grandkids. We all. Do you have any more money? We love any more movement, lulus, slippers, booties. And we need them. You know, if they get holes in the bottom, we’re repairing them because they’re precious.

They. They’re part of our legacy. Of what? What she she did for us. So my father, who was a career marine, after he was a vaudevillian storyteller, he took up art when he retired, and I got to teach him and he saw his paintings. He was copying his favorite art at first and which is a real valid way to learn.

And then he did paintings of images that he loved and framed them for us, and we give him to us for Christmas. Well, I’ll tell you, a museum couldn’t come and offer me a million bucks for those paintings. They are so precious. And, you know, just like when you see your children’s work and you talk about the talent of your your daughter and and your son’s efforts, see, they’re precious to us.

And so, you know, we we leave a legacy for our family in one way or another, even even as we share our gardening or our cooking with our family, with our children or food, you know, that that they know is a taste of home. My children are raised, so they come home and they want those favorite recipes. They want my grandmother.

Well, waffles. They want mama spaghetti. They want, you know, whatever, whatever they loved that they grew up with. So these are things that ignite both sides of our brain. Bring us joy. And it also leave a legacy. You know, it’s interesting as when I’m working with my clients, like we’ll get the time management figured out and the organization and, you know, start building up all the executive function skills.

And then I’ll say, how do we add more joy? And that’s like the next thing. And oftentimes it’ll be gardening or it’ll be art or it’ll be something like that because it’s like, okay, we’ve got this area taken care of, but now we need to add in the joy as well. And so that’s exactly how I put it.

How do we add more joy? So with ADHD professionals and entrepreneurs who are listening right now, they might not feel like they have a lot of time. How does one make time for art or to be creative? Well, like I like I said, a lot of the experts say it only takes 15, 20 minutes and singing in the shower or singing on your way to work actually ignites your left brain right brain connection.

It’s as simple as that. They studied people singing in the shower. So there you are, you know, rub a dub dubbing, scrubbing in the tub. You’re not thinking about work. You’re not trying to problem solve. You’re singing along and you get out. You feel good, you release that serotonin, and all of a sudden an idea comes to you.

Maybe it solves a problem that you are having at work, or just a new way of thinking about something, a new perspective, maybe relationship stuff. It is almost like magic. The way it works. You don’t have to make an extra 20 minutes in your day. Just choose to sing for me, it’s driving, you know, It only affects the people and the cars around me as I’m just belting it out.

I don’t care if I’m on key, off key, whatever. Just finding that joy is lifting you up. It’s also doing great things for your brain. Most of us have to cook at some point, so cooking can be a creative way when taking a stroll. These things are simple ways to incorporate in our lifestyle, but being in the moment when we do it and I it’s interesting.

This morning I was getting ready. I was actually doing my makeup and stuff and I had the music blasting and singing along and I was like, Why don’t I do this every day? But it makes you feel so good. It really, really does. It’s true. It it makes a difference. So it doesn’t have to be adding a lot of extra time in your life.

But if there is something just just as Mandy was saying, I want to paint and really making steps to to have that happen and you don’t have to then do hours a day to make it happen to get good at it. There’s simple ways I know with my how to draw a book, how to paint book, there’s simple exercises to start and start building your skills to get to the point where you know how to activate your right brain.

Without that left brain, sometimes bully, left brain bully saying You can’t do that. You’re not you’re too old or or you know, you can’t draw good ed these these lies that just can paralyze us from trying new things. And do you work that into your education as far as because that critical brain part can really, really crush people being creative, Do you work that into your teaching?

I said, this is a safe space, you know, and even with my college students, I’m like, No criticism zone, okay? And that means yourself. So I’ll I’ll call them on it. It seems like teen or upper teens a lot of times. I can’t do that. I like I can’t believe the way you just criticized my student. Well, I was talking about me.

Well, you’re my student. My kids even know that I did that with my kids all the time. I’m like, I don’t have to be bad about talk about my kids that way. That’s why I don’t talk about my daughter that way. And it really does to stop. She stops that process from taking us down that negative road that we believe we can’t.

You know where we can believe we can instead. So it’s it’s some of it’s conscious choices and some of it is creating an atmosphere and saying this is a no criticism zone. You know, like I said, we don’t even under let my students look at their paper when they’re drawing when they start doing the exercises. I call it blind contours.

They have to follow the outline of these figures without looking at their paper. We separate that product from the process of learning and growing and healing that happens through learning new things. It’s so good for our brain, our emotions, and every part of us and, you know, our bodies fall in line with our thinking. And so we get so much benefit out of adding joy, adding enjoyment to our day.

It’s worth it. So, yeah, as professionals, we are busy, We do have full time lives, but there is definitely a need for self-care involved in there. And you know what? You can involve your your family with your self-care. I usually take a walk with my husband at LASD and sometimes one of my kids, if they’re home, you know, when we’re engaging in conversation, talking about our days, looking and smelling the day and and enjoying the weather and whatever’s happening around us is doing something supernaturally wonderful in our brains.

And everybody can do it because we’re all wired. We’re all creatives. We were born that way. I think that is a perfect ending right there. So I want to leave time for you to tell people how to connect with you, how to find you, your resources. Well, thank you for that. Yeah, I hope everybody goes to WW w get creative with Karen Tor.com and gets that three part Pop-Up podcast and find something that gets you excited.

I know for me, journaling or well writing, I when I was in church, I had helped me focus too with writing everything down and all the scripture down turned into being an author. I’m working on my fourth book. I didn’t imagine that to happen. Bring bring along a sketchbook or bring along a notebook. When you go, go, go.

Taking a walk or on an outing. Yeah so get creative with Karen dot com is one way. I do have a website Karen DeLoach art icon and I would love to connect with anybody just wants to ask questions and find out more about engaging in their fabulously brilliant right brain. Do you do any social media where you show your art?

Yeah, I have a I have a Facebook, I’m on Facebook. I show my my work on Facebook and I have a Facebook group, Christian Creatives, that we show each other our art and our work. And I’m getting ready to do a new a new group and it will be public. So that’s coming out probably within the next couple of weeks.

Very good. Very good. All right. Well, thank you, Karen, so much for being with us today. My pleasure.